Are we a "bumper car" series? [long]

#21

Steve,

Starting a poll: one vote for no contact (as a general guideline for racer conduct).

I’ve been the victim of 2 major incidents where cars were out of control crashing into me causing a great deal of damage. I had mixed responses from fellow racers ranging from “That’s racing - get over it” to concern over driver conduct. I also believe, as you stated, that any contact, at the front or rear of the pack is unacceptable, and directly reflects on the driver’s control of the car. Out of control - you’re hitting other people. I do however subscribe to the philosophy that “S&*T happens” but that is different than someone driving beyond their skill level.

Best of luck getting your car repaired. It looked awesome in red with no dents!
Ed

#22

#2 vote for no contact, it doesn’t add anything to racing. After several hits last year as I can only describe as impossibly optimistic, I have to say I’d like to see it end.

#23

Days before I saw this thread I watched the video that shows pretty clearly the Gran Turismo game version of Spec E30. I watch a LOT of SE 30 videos and that’s the first one that really jumped out at me with a “WTF kind of racing is THAT?” reaction. If that nonsense (particularly the car other than Steve’s…and I have no idea who the guy is) is what passes for gentlemanly conduct I guess I’ll stick to HPDE’s. My level of self preservation is just higher than that. Bad enough the cars get banged up; what I saw was a potential wreck on Lap 1 that could have easily collected several other innocents and destroyed cars and hurt people. Yeah, I know, racing is dangerous, yada yada. But why make it moreso than necessary?

Vintage racers can do it. Open wheel guys HAVE to do it. Motorcycle racers do it or get hurt very quickly. No reason we can’t do it.

#24

I think Sean summed up my feelings pretty well. I’m ok with a little contact but that doesn’t mean its acceptable. I’m not going to make a fuss unless there is major damage, but that doesn’t mean you have free reign to tap and bump my car. The attitude of the driver that this is acceptable conduct and pointing to Cobetto’s car as an example is totally unacceptable. Spec E30 has some of the hardest closest racing that I have seen and some contact is going to happen but it is the responsibility of everyone to avoid contact and not to get the red mist, especially at the start of the race. People are always going to forget this and shit is going to happen especially with new drivers who are overly excited and forget that there is nothing to win but everything to lose. Something I like to do is actually think about wrecking my car in the race, this sounds bizarre but the thought of wrecking gives me that boy that would really suck I don’t want to do that. Lets say you start in 5th place, think about the difference finishing the 1st lap in 3rd,4th,5th,6th,7th or wrecking. I think everyone would take 7th after lap 1 over wrecking their car. Over the course of the race you can usually make back those lost spots from a poor start, you might finish down a spot from your ultimate speed but you can sleep well that your car is in one piece and you had a good race. Quite often some of the best races you have are when you get a bad start because you have to battle through slightly slower cars and you have to use all your skills and race craft to get back positions. Think about these things when you are going for a low pertcentage move, what are you really going to gain? The answer is not much but there is certainly a lot to lose not just in car damage ($) but also in reputation and possibly friendships. This applies even more if you aren’t battling for the lead, is anyone going to remember if you finished 7th or 8th? Not likely we’re all here to have fun and make friends, the competition is great but it shouldn’t consume you. Oh and for the record I don’t mind bump drafting one bit so if you’re behind me don’t wait for my wave to push me ;), that doesn’t mean everyone appreciates it.

#25

All:

For sure, Steve K. has had some bad luck lately. Steve’s on-track driving, and racing, have improved significantly over the past couple of seasons and his frustration is clear.

Spec E30 understands his and others’ concerns about body damage and we know that no one wants to either do, or pay someone to do, bodywork. Also, Steve K. shows his maturity and level-headedness by admitting that his mistake was a part of his situation.

I have raced at the back, midpack, and at the front and I agree with Mike D. that Spec E30 is definitely not a “bumper car series.” Steve K. is understandably concerned, because of his recent experiences. But during those races, virtually all other racers didn’t have any body damage. We all see the world through our own individual experiences and from my my own, the racing in the Mid Atlantic has been very close but generally respectful and mostly clean. Plus, NASA Mid Atlantic officials have acted when necessary and offending drivers have received penalties per the CCR.

Last year, I had contact with another car (my fault) and I gained a position from the contact. I got DQ’d and didn’t object to the ruling. And I give a little more room to other cars, as a result.

However, getting DQ’d won’t affect all drivers the same and just because one driver (Steve K’s example in his original post) feels that bumping is a part of the program, it doesn’t mean that all, or many, or even a few, agree with that driver.

I do believe that the great majority of Spec E30 drivers, in all regions, do not want to have body contact with other cars and that Steve K’s experiences are generally rare.

Carter Hunt
Spec E30 National Series Director

#26

Carter wrote:

[quote]All:

Spec E30 understands his and others’ concerns about body damage and we know that no one wants to either do, or pay someone to do, bodywork. Also, Steve K. shows his maturity and level-headedness by admitting that his mistake was a part of his situation.

I have raced at the back, midpack, and at the front and I agree with Mike D. that Spec E30 is definitely not a “bumper car series.” Steve K. is understandably concerned, because of his recent experiences. But during those races, virtually all other racers didn’t have any body damage. We all see the world through our own individual experiences and from my my own, the racing in the Mid Atlantic has been very close but generally respectful and mostly clean. Plus, NASA Mid Atlantic officials have acted when necessary and offending drivers have received penalties per the CCR.

However, getting DQ’d won’t affect all drivers the same and just because one driver (Steve K’s example in his original post) feels that bumping is a part of the program, it doesn’t mean that all, or many, or even a few, agree with that driver.

I do believe that the great majority of Spec E30 drivers, in all regions, do not want to have body contact with other cars and that Steve K’s experiences are generally rare.

Carter Hunt
Spec E30 National Series Director[/quote]

Carter, I agree that most people in the series do not believe that this is one where contact is the norm. My concern is we have someone relatively new to our series telling me, after contact, that to race in SpecE30 I should expect that there will be contact. My question is where did that perception come from and why.

We can say that the majority of us do not believe it to be true but we have new comers believing it. This is a perception problem. I am not sure if it is because videos have it, we talk about it, a combination of the two, or some other reason. The point is, is this perception what we want?

I also want to make a comment that discounts the state that virtually all other racers didn’t have body damage. We had 5 cars in a group of 16 who ended up with damage that can cost real dollars to fix with 4 of them that were preventable: Two on Saturday and two on Sunday. That is 25% of the cars which I believe is 25% too much.

-Steve

#27

Steve,

Not trying to over simplify your concern, but I really see no reason to debate this. It is irrelevant what a relative newcomer may think. THE RULES SAY NO CONTACT. Contact has consequences and it is up to the racers to see that any contact is dealt with by the race directors. JMHO.

#28

I am a newcomer to SE30, and in our regoin, SE30 IS known to have a lot of contact, and a lot of single car incidents. But so is SM. I disagree with the attitude the body damage is OK, but in a spec series it is expected to happen more often, it byproduct of close racing. And you have to admit that our cars are not the most nimble things on the track making collision avoidence more difficult.

I support your concern, but it would be a bummer to have a 13 13 rule in SE30.

#29

Wrecking or not wrecking has nothing to do with how your car handles. It has everything to do with how you handle your car. If you can’t not hit the other guy, you are not a good enough driver to earn the right to be ahead of him. He is ahead of you for some reason.
Steve D.

#30

Contact is NOT a byproduct of close racing. It’s a byproduct of people racing closely that SHOULDN’T be.

I am amazed at how many people are chiming in to say that intentional contact is ok. I don’t care what series, what car, what level your in… no one should have contact on purpose. Saying you’re a better driver because you make contact shows more about your driving skill than you realize.

If you are thinking about posting and saying intentional contact is ok, please stop and think about what your saying. Then go back to HPDE and learn some talent.

Simon - I agree that bump-drafting is a different story.

#31

mikeski38 wrote:

[quote]And you have to admit that our cars are not the most nimble things on the track making collision avoidence more difficult.

I support your concern, but it would be a bummer to have a 13 13 rule in SE30.[/quote]

I’d say you aren’t ready to race with us if this is how you feel.

#32

And the answer is:

CCRs 27.11 and 27.12, pages 123 and 124.The NASA cats thought this thing out several years ago…

Some contact is good, some is not. Assess penalties and move on.

Regards, Robert Patton

#33

[Patton wrote:

[quote]And the answer is:

CCRs 27.11 and 27.12, pages 123 and 124.The NASA cats thought this thing out several years ago…

Some contact is good, some is not. Assess penalties and move on.

Regards, Robert Patton[/quote]

Robert,

Thank you for posting this. It has been a long while since I have read the CCRs and looks like I need to review it again.

It is interesting that the CCR states that “Any sheet metal, fiberglass, or other body material, deformity significant enough to cause the NASA Officials to enforce the “50/50 rule,” thus requiring repairs.” Has any car ever failed the 50/50 rule after contact? I know my car, when it was silver, did not pass the 50/50 rule after being hit a couple of times on the passenger side of the car. There are enough pictures taken by Euroimages to prove it. There are a couple of us running around with cars that do not meet the 50/50 rule.

My final thoughts is this: We have some newer people who have joined this series and who believe that some contact is ok, as does the CCR apparently. I pretty much know the answer given the CCR, but is that going to be the “rule” of the series? Contact is ok as defined by the CCR and move on or should we have a standard that we agree that no contact is ok?

-Steve

#34

Steve, In my time doing this, I don’t think the 50/50 rule has ever been enforced in the SE and it is unlikely that it ever will be. Having said that, if it were enforced; I could see this being a major deterent to curb manuvers that have a high probability of contact. Think about it, if you had to fix body damage after every single altercation, wouldn’t you be less likely to put your car into a situation where the outcome was in question? Now if you owned a body shop it might be a different story. :wink:

Robert, thanks for the CCR refresher course. I had forgotten about the appeals process. I’m not aware of anyone ever filing an appeal…are you?

#35

Gasman wrote:

[quote]mikeski38 wrote:

[quote]And you have to admit that our cars are not the most nimble things on the track making collision avoidence more difficult.

I support your concern, but it would be a bummer to have a 13 13 rule in SE30.[/quote]

I’d say you aren’t ready to race with us if this is how you feel.[/quote]

If this is how you feel, you may want to reconsider spec racing. Contact isn’t anyone’s goal, but when you have 25 cars running withing 2 seconds of each other, sometimes light contact is unavoidable. I have been running competitive NASA classes since 2003, with my “attitude” I have never been involved in a major incident where penalties were handed out to either party. I would say I’m ready to race with you.

#36

I think we might be talking past each other Mike. In my mind, contact is avoidable more often than not. It would seem your experience is mcuh greater than you lead me to believe in earlier post. I look forward to racing with you without contact.

#37

Gasman wrote:

I totally agree, but in those rare times where there is contact, we have to understand that it is a part of racing, especially low cost spec racing, fix our cars, and move on.

#38

I agree with one exception. Access penalty, fix our cars and move on.

#39

Gasman wrote:

What is ‘Access Penalty’? Are we going to have a toll booth at the pit out? :laugh: