April Mid-Ohio Dyno runs

#9

The dyno was a few HP higher on Saturday compared to Friday. Not surprised but a little frustrating. Keep in mind that even three runs back to back can vary a few HP. The dyno is a great tool but don’t think it is going to be the holy grail of equality. Our region previously looked at the max HP and TQ of around 161/162 and it seemed to fit what we experienced.

#10

Thanks, Michael.

Yes, I think the system needs further review. However, a current good consequence, I don’t see any reason to build the high-dollar engine.

RP

#11

[quote=“ilateapex” post=76699][quote=“Patton” post=76695]Time to discuss with Carter Hunt.

Everything else is just wasted time. Tell 007 and 21 to add air horn and plugs, new electrics (cap/rotor).

Tell the others that they are in a close spread (which is what you want as a regional director) and to worry about detune when you arrive at Nationals in late August

Not going to Nationals, just build a monster engine and you’ll be the greatest in your own area. Enjoy the $3.00 beer mug. Try not to listen to the snide remarks from other regional racers as they wonder about your straightaway talent.

I think the SE folks are playing well together. The long straightaway at Roebling Road this past weekend did not uncover any big gaps in talent among our gang. Michael, does the #54 exhibit that much over the others? (Hey, no assumption of wrong doing on the #54’s part, my daughter’s car has put down a 164hp number before. Just trying to get info.)

RP[/quote]

Yes, I think this whole system need review. All we can do for now is gather data.

Car 007 was down based on him detuning the car. The 007 is capable of 160 HP. After he went back to the dyno Saturday afternoon $$ he was able to tune to 154HP.

Car 21 may need to take your advise.

Car 54 was not an over dog. The racing was close.[/quote]

#54 was also running very heavy in both races to be legal. That much weight in the car was not good, especially for the tires. The motor is nothing special as I didn’t have the budget for a “special” motor, nor did I want one. My previous motor (140-141HP) failed at the end of the 2012 season. The new motor was built at the beginning of the 2013 season. We were hoping for 155 and got 160. After adding the PS back to the car, we dyno’d 3 runs at 156.56, 157.19 and 157.89 the weekend before the race. Luckily we knew the dyno results at the track would be a crap shoot and ran heavy enough to make weight at the higher numbers.

I’m a bit bummed to be spending more of my strict budget to chase the dyno. This eats into track fees and subsequently the number of events that I can do in a season. I agree with the sentiment that the system needs further review and that more discussion is needed with Carter and the Series Directors. I’m hopeful we’ll find a solution that is tenable.

#12

Kyle, I understand the bummed and expense comments. Been there, done that in my 10 years of SE30 racing. To your point, thank you for sharing the experiences as it is true that we are all still learning.

Will forward the data to Carter Hunt.

RP

#13

This could easily be fixed by repealing the hp rule.

And lower the minimum weight by 100lb while your at it.

#14

Any thoughts on just a horsepower cap?

It gets really confusing when dyno error is greater than 1 hp, but our weight increments are 20lbs per hp. So last race competitor A was at 159hp per the NASA dyno via tech. Now he officially knows what weight he has to run to be legal. He ‘de-tunes’ his engine to get to 155hp on a local dyno for the next race, but there is no NASA dyno that weekend. What weight does he run? Our region has already shown a wide range in power numbers for the same car on different dynos.

#15

Denny, our region too.

Really, put the pressure on key SE30 administration and NASA.

Everything else is wasted time.

RP

#16

+1 for only a hp cap

#17

I agree that some change is needed. I finally sorted out my engine gremlins and have great numbers but now I’m worried about weight. If i load extra weight to stay legal on one dyno and then the next dyno showed I could have dropped that weight, I essentially penalized myself just by trying to stay within the rules. I Don’t think that’s the purpose of the rules. Minimum weight is needed. Maximum horsepower is needed. All the stuff in between is just guesswork and doesn’t do anything to equalize the field.

How do you deal with different dynos? Set a hp max that is just outside reasonable attainability. A 162 hp car could show 155 to 170 based on what i am hearing with all the dyno comments. 175 would be unreasonably attainable. So set it at 162.9 like it is now but add a +8 (pick a number) cushion. If somebody wants to ride the ragged edge at 170 all the time they will not pass every race. Cross that bridge then.

How does torque figure in? As a non-guru i dont have a good suggestion, but I bet Jim Levie does.

Incidentally, I think we should be allowed to weigh full of fuel and reweigh after fueling at impound with an inspector present for the fueling if your car is under. Some races are 20 min with a double yellow, some are 45 all green. The difference in weight under those circumstances is significant. We have ~14 or ~16 gallon tanks depending on model year. By default there is a 12-13 lb difference that could be accounted for in the rules. Again the idea is to take out the guesswork. The argument against it is a smart driver could calculate exactly what is needed and run almost dry then make weight after the race. True, but the rule could also include that if more than 10 gallons (or pick a number) have to be added to make weight then you fail. The inspector could also make a quick judgment (i.e. 20 lbs under equals <3 gallons so pass). If everybody makes weight with a full tank then one variable about possible cheating is eliminated and drivers can avoid having to guess at a cushion that in fact puts them at a disadvantage during the race (i.e. adding unnecessary weight to account for fuel that may or may not be used).

We are not IROC and we have to realize that the cars will never be exactly alike. Plus We lack the technical ability to inspect like NASCAR. The intent of the class is to be competitive through reasonable equalization and the intent of the rules is to define equalization and discourage cheating through policy.

#18

[quote=“Patton” post=76703]Kyle, I understand the bummed and expense comments. Been there, done that in my 10 years of SE30 racing. To your point, thank you for sharing the experiences as it is true that we are all still learning.

Will forward the data to Carter Hunt.

RP[/quote]

Thanks Robert. As Denny, Anthony and others have suggested in this thread, I too would like Spec E30 to institute a horsepower cap and be done with it.

#19

I don’t fully understand this. How is weighing after a race not equal? I guess someone could gamble on Yellow flags but that is a gamble. We add fuel by weight. As an example we know at Mid-Ohio we burn 0.9 lbs of fuel per lap. We figure how many laps we expect to run based on the race time and fill up to that. There are the occasions when the scales seem off so if we get a strange number during our weighing before a race we go across again. All this checking is free unlike the Dyno.

#20

I’ll continue to run under 155 and not worry about weight.
It’s saving me $$ from needing to refresh the head to chase that 162.8.

#21

[quote=“epalacio19” post=76729]I’ll continue to run under 155 and not worry about weight.
It’s saving me $$ from needing to refresh the head to chase that 162.8.[/quote]

A common plan but what happens when the dyno at the track reads 160 on race day for some reason?

#22

I add the extra weight I bring with me to the track every weekend.

At Road Atlanta I dynoed on Friday. Probably won’t dyno again until Nationals.

#23

Look at it this way. Currently, i run an extra 15-25 lbs just to ensure that i am over 2700 at the end of the race. Yes i could cut it close but i would be gambling and it’s not worth it.

Now imagine the rule is this (and remember this is all off the cuff numbers):
Minimum weight 2750 FULL. If the car weighs less than 2700 (read again: 27zerozero)follwing a race, you have the opportunity to fill it up at impound and reweigh. Less than 2750 after reweigh, fail & DQ. That’s 50lbs of gas (approx 7.5-8 gallons).

For guys like me who don’t weigh fuel and do “math” (whatever that is), that is an easy way to stay legal. Fill it up, put it on the scales, get it to minimum weight and you’re done. No matter how long the race is you will always make weight because if you have to fill up at impound you will hit 2750.

For the math guys, you can still play the numbers but it takes out some of the range at which you can, ahem, work the weights. For example, if you gamble and figure out that you can weigh 2725 full and burn 24 lbs of fuel and avoid having to reweigh, then good for you. But if you actually burn 26 lbs of fuel, you will have to fill up at impound, reweigh, and you will only get to 2724 and get DQ’d.

As a comparison, NASCARs must weigh 3400 ready to race (meaning full). They don’t even have a tolerance like i am proposing, just a flat out minimum. They fill everybody up that they tech and weigh them. Under 3400, fail. I’m not saying we go to the trouble of requiring a fill up to weigh, only if it falls out of the bottom range (which would imply possible “math” and be against the spirit of all being the same weight when we start).

Clear as mud now? :stuck_out_tongue:

#24

Look at it this way. Currently, i run an extra 15-25 lbs just to ensure that i am over 2700 at the end of the race. Yes i could cut it close but i would be gambling and it’s not worth it.

Now imagine the rule is this (and remember this is all off the cuff numbers):
Minimum weight 2750 FULL. If the car weighs less than 2700 (read again: 27zerozero)follwing a race, you have the opportunity to fill it up at impound and reweigh. Less than 2750, fail & DQ. That’s 50lbs of gas (approx 7.5-8 gallons).

For guys like me who don’t weigh fuel and do “math” (whatever that is), that is an easy way to stay legal. Fill it up, put it on the scales, get it to minimum weight and you’re done. No matter how long the race is you will always make weight because if you have to fill up at impound you will hit 2750.

For the math guys, you can still play the numbers but it takes out some of the range at which you can, ahem, work the weights. For example, if you gamble and figure out that you can weigh 2725 full and burn 24 lbs of fuel and avoid having to reweigh, then good for you. But if you actually burn 26 lbs of fuel, you will have to fill up at impound, reweigh, and you will only get to 2724 and get DQ’d.

As a comparison, NASCARs must weigh 3400 ready to race (meaning full). They don’t even have a tolerance like i am proposing, just a flat out minimum. They fill everybody up that they tech and weigh them. Under 3400, fail. I’m not saying we go to the trouble of requiring a fill up to weigh, only if it falls out of the bottom range (which would imply possible “math” and be against the spirit of all being the same weight when we start).

Clear as mud now? :P[/quote]

NO it is not clear.

This is clear: Fill car to brim, the weight is at rear where you want it. Weigh car. Write it down on your mirror. Double check the weight at other tracks/scales. But always weigh it full of fuel.

You will use 1 pound of fuel per minute of race(not quite 1 pound but this will keep it safe when you go to the scales).

Make weight allowances for weather/cool suit.(Or, extra pizza/beer the night or weeks before.)

Fill up for next race.

Repeat for the next 10 years or so.

RP

#25

for the engine ignorant…how the hell are people “tuning” their cars down based on dyno runs…besides adding the power steering back, what are they doing to take away power?

signed…confused in Richmond

#26

Good question. Rules don’t explicitly state what’s a legal way to de-tune the engine. Power steering & thick oil only go so far, so does that make all de-tuned engines illegal?

#27

+1 for only a hp cap[/quote]

^I’m with stupid…I mean Rob. The power to weight idea is good in theory but the brackets are far too small and it is going to make things extremely complicated. People are going to lose/win races based on DQs for 1 hp this way or that way.

I support ditching the power/weight rule but retaining a hp cap.

#28

The 944spec class uses the total of HP and TQ and divides by two to create your final number. They then allow +- 2HP for dyno variation with a minimum weight of 2600lbs.

I saw variations of 6 hp at the last Nationals in Utah. Spent lots of time and money chasing the rabbit. This is on the same dyno over 4 days.