Another oil thread

#15

kgobey wrote:

[quote]

The Oil designed today totally out spec’s the oil produced at the time of the creation of the M20B25. The Oil is so far superior, that any of the Oils we could possibly choose would perform leagues better than the Oil that was used in the R&D for the engine we all use in the series we race in.

So, according to Dad… and please take this with as much speculative reasoning you give anything you read on the internet… according to the one known as “Dad” use the Dyno as your measure of the Oil you pick as much as any other method for choosing the gooey stuff.[/quote]

I agree 100%. Today’s oils (all of them) are far superior to the oils that were available all through the life cycle of our engines. And 99.5% of our engines (and many junkyard engines of today) still survive 120 MPH Autobahn runs, Mike Davidson’s rev limiter torture thorugh hog pen, and thousands upon thousands of track miles. That means our engines are pretty stout and any of today’s oils should do a pretty good job of protecting them.
Having said that, every engine is different, every e30 engine has had a different history, and why junk yard engines or street engines that have been driven 100k miles plus fail has absolutely nothing to do with the oil that is in the car today. It has more to do with wear or sludge that happened at some point, maybe 20 years ago, in the enginne’s life. It may even be due to that one in 1000 defective bearings, cams, or cranks that made it’s way to the production line. Engine failures have nothing to do with brand X or brand Y oil.

Now assuming that one has a newly rebuilt engine I agree with Ranger that the using the best HTHS synthetic oils with the best ZDDP package is a good idea. And why not use the best oil one can buy even if it merely prolongs an engine failure one more weekend. Let’s make sure we are clear. No Oil causes an engine failure, No oil can prevent an engine failure that is bound to happen anyway, and No oil can be expected to prevent failure in engine if an engine is over revved or otherwise abused.

The idea of finding the best [ul]engine[/ul] oil for max Hp is a complete wast of time. There is actually much more usable parsitic loss through trans and diff oils and if one wants to study lubricants on a dyno, this is where you should spend your time.

Per Patton, the NASCAR teams study this frequently and many teams put ultra slippery, ultra light oils in the cars (engines, trans, diffs, and even power steering) for qualifying to get that extra HP for that extra 0.001 second on the track. Does that mean we should use 0w 10w or 20w oils in the engine, trans, and diffs? Hell no. The NASCAR teams have engineers who study lubes and change lubes after every practice session. If one of those magic oils failed to lubricate an engine or a gear in a practice or qualifying session, that engine trans or rear gear is changed and a longer life oil is put in the qualifying oil’s place. We can’t keep up with such nonsense.

I am a strong believer in high ZDDP synthetics simply because it is fact that syntehtics flow better when cold an hold up better when hot. Period. There are some top quality blends and I believe Amsoil, RedLine and Royal Purple are right up there. The difference between those oils and the big name brands is almost negligible but if one wants to split hairs, the base stocks of the brands mentioned and the additive packages are a tick better than the “profit for shareholder” mega brands like the Mobil-1s, Syntecs, Valvoline and Quaker Sates of the world.

Per Ranger’s comment about the Pelican thread and Brad Penn. I have studied that thread as well and have contibuted a few times. As I state above, the differences between any of the high line oils including Brad Penn are insignificant. Personally I prefer a full synthetic PAO based oil to Pennsylvania crude for the extreme temperature performance.

I hope this perpsective is helpful.

Don Stevens
Spec E30 #80

#16

Maybe the problem is thinking about it to much. Last night you got me thinking about it and this morning at the first stoplight after about 10 minutes into my drive to work my op light came on. I pulled in and checked the level and it was full. I started it back up and realized it only comes on under 800rpm. I drove the last few miles to work and checked it an hour later and it was right at the full line. I just changed the oil about 1.5 tanks ago with gtx high mileage 10w-40. I’m hoping that my driving style along with the high detergent oil stirred up so much crap that it clogged the new filter, but I think it’s more likely that I have bigger issues. I’m going to cut the filter open as soon as it cools down enough. Funny thing is it started running strange after I changed the fuel filter a few days ago. I don’t have a working odometer but I think it’s sucked down half a tank in <50 miles, the valve-train is substantially louder, some drives I make good power and others not, and I don’t know how my oil is right at the full line at the rate that it leaks out my pan gasket.

#17

I just noticed something really important to your comparison. 3.7 is the lowest hths that a 50 grade oil can have. All of the 3.7s are in red because the information is not provided so 3.7 is put in by default. That explains why the 99 cent gas station brands like citgo and 76 do better than royal purple and many other “racing” synthetics.

#18

I replaced the filter with another fram extra guard. The 2 week old filter is very sparkly and I picked up a lot of metal off of it with a magnet. My brother said to run the new filter for a little while longer than it took for oil light to come on with the new filter and if it came on again to start calling junk yards for a new motor. It didn’t come back on after 15 minutes. I pulled the valve cover and everything looked fine. I expected missing lobes from the noise it makes now.

#19

Sparkly stuff in the oil is evidence that things in the engine are shedding metal. Which in turn means it is time for a rebuild or replacement of the engine.

#20

Further comment on the sparkly stuff and low oil pressure.

Does anyone really know if engines fail because of low oil pressure or if the oil pressure drops because if all the sparkly stuff clogging the oil pump intake? My guess is that by the time a driver notices the oil pressure drop the damage has already been done

Don

#21

An engine can fail because of low pressure that deprives rotating parts of oil, typically the result of low oil level, a failed oil pump, or a collapsed filter. Or more commonly, oil pressure will be low because of wear in the rotating parts. Sparkly stuff in the oil is a sure sign of metal worn off of rotating parts and a clear call for a rebuild or a replacement engine.

#22

I talked to my brother last night. He is a full time BMW mechanic and part time s14 and m20 builder. He said bmw now uses castrol synthetic 10w-60 in new bmws but recommends regular gtx 10w-40 or 20w-50 in older bmws. There are no 10w-60s in the chart, but I would definitely like to see some of the numbers on it.

Sidebar: My op light came on at idle again today. I bought a really strong magnetic retriever today and fished in the oil that I drained out of it last week. There was a very small amount of extremely fine iron particles in a gray film over the magnet. This could probably be considered normal. I would cut the filter up that came with that oil but unfortunately I threw it away. I ran the new magnet over each pleat in the filter I took out yesterday again and got a lot more. Half the particles were large and brown and looked like crystals of rust. The other half was gray finely ground unrusted iron. And there were also a few large chrome looking flakes.

#23

turbo329is wrote:

[quote]I talked to my brother last night. He is a full time BMW mechanic and part time s14 and m20 builder. He said bmw now uses castrol synthetic 10w-60 in new bmws but recommends regular gtx 10w-40 or 20w-50 in older bmws. There are no 10w-60s in the chart, but I would definitely like to see some of the numbers on it.

Sidebar: My op light came on at idle again today. I bought a really strong magnetic retriever today and fished in the oil that I drained out of it last week. There was a very small amount of extremely fine iron particles in a gray film over the magnet. This could probably be considered normal. I would cut the filter up that came with that oil but unfortunately I threw it away. I ran the new magnet over each pleat in the filter I took out yesterday again and got a lot more. Half the particles were large and brown and looked like crystals of rust. The other half was gray finely ground unrusted iron. And there were also a few large chrome looking flakes.[/quote]

What does your brother advise about all that metal in your oil? Gray film all over the magnet indicates sub 10 micron iron particles (that woun’t be trapped in the filter) are mixing with the oil and forming sludge. That is what is sucking up on the pump pick upand causin low OP. Remember also, the magnet is only going to pick up iron. There may be copper and lead (read bearings) floating around in there too,

I agree with Levie, it sounds like you are running on borrowed time. Try oil analysis next and if that shows high PPM of wear metals, it may be time toer it down beofre it tears itself down for you.

Don

#24

My brother has pretty much told me I need a new motor. For now it is my only driver until my head gasket comes in for the turbo car and I get a taillight for my husqy. I thought about changing the filter again and maybe oil in the i but its probably wasted money and effort.

#25

donstevens wrote:

[quote]Further comment on the sparkly stuff and low oil pressure.

Does anyone really know if engines fail because of low oil pressure or if the oil pressure drops because if all the sparkly stuff clogging the oil pump intake? My guess is that by the time a driver notices the oil pressure drop the damage has already been done

Don[/quote]

Sparkly stuff won’t clog the oil pump intake, it would take a piece of foreign matter the size of a quarter or so.

Engines shouldn’t fail because of low oil pressure. All thepump really has to do is keep oil flowing to the bearings as fast as it’s getting squirted out of the bearings. So as long as the pump is a little more capable then the most oil that can get squirted out, then the pump will have a little remaining flow capacity. But when it comes to the oil pump, it’s more about providing adequate flow then pressure.

As we all know, worn bearings have larger gaps which flow more oil. It’s the inability of the pump to sustain high pressure in the face of less flow resistance that results in the loss of pressure. A gradual loss of pressure is a symptom, not a cause of anything.

Castrol GTX is crap. The 20W50 Syntec, however, is only “sometimes crap”. Castrol doesn’t publish specs on teir oil. That makes tribiologists mistrust it, and it also allows them to change their additive package as often as they want and know one will know. I’ve see oil analyses that said 20W50 Syntec that indicated that it was ok, and some not ok.

The biggest problem with GTX tho is not an issue of bearings, but an issue of the anti-wear additives needed by the cam, rockers, rings and cylinder walls.

#26

I found the Castrol Edge 10w-60 on their website. the only specs listed were the VI, 100c and 40c numbers. The fact that BMW recommends using it in all new m cars and 15k changes makes me want to try it, but not in a junkyard motor.

#27

turbo329is wrote:

Adding on to Ranger’s comments about Castrol and your comments about Edge 10W60. The 10W60 that BMW recommends for M cars and even the 5W30 that BMW dealers carry IS NOT the same stuff that you can buy over the counter here in the states. The BMW labeled oil is blended in Europe to a completely different set of specs as in America.

American Castrol was the first oil company to challenge the notion that group III hydrocracked (highly refined petroleum) oils can be called synthetic. Mobil sued them stating that their Group IV oils (formulated from a derivative of natural gas I belive) are the only true synthetic oils becaused they are manufactured in a much more expensive procedure than hydrocracking. Castrol won the suit and paved the way for every oil company (including companies like Mobil, Amsoil, and Royal Purple) to offer a lest costly group III oil labled “synthetic” and still charge full synthetic prices. Virtually every brad name “synthetic” that one can buy of the shelf in Walmart and auto parts stores today is the cheaper group III oil.

Having said that, the Group III products still perform extremely well in 98% of the applications. It is the bait and switch that Castrol America started that pisses me off.

Don

#28

Hmmm, interesting thread guys.

So is the Advance/AutoZone Mobil 1 I buy a Group III or Group IV oil??

#29

Ranger wrote:

[quote]Castrol GTX is crap. The 20W50 Syntec, however, is only “sometimes crap”. Castrol doesn’t publish specs on teir oil. That makes tribiologists mistrust it, and it also allows them to change their additive package as often as they want and know one will know. I’ve see oil analyses that said 20W50 Syntec that indicated that it was ok, and some not ok.

The biggest problem with GTX tho is not an issue of bearings, but an issue of the anti-wear additives needed by the cam, rockers, rings and cylinder walls.[/quote]

Damn it. Castrol GTX 20w50 is what I have been running. If you are going to slam my oil, can you recommend a cheap 20w50 to use instead? I believe I have seen you mention Valvoline VR1? I don’t really want to run one of the expensive synthetics, and I am too lazy to do any research on it.

#30

I’ve decided to go against my brothers recommendation and switch from regular 20w-50 VR1 to synthetic 20w-50 VR1 in the turbo motor. The motor probably probably has less than 1k miles on it and is full of fancy ceramic and Teflon coatings on the inside, so it seams like a good candidate.
I’m going to change the oil and filter again on the i motor again and examine it. The op light has stopped coming on at idle and it doesn’t seam to be getting progressively worse as I expected.

#31

I’m switching from Valvoline VR-1 to Brad Penn. It’s cheaper and has far better specs. I just got box of Brad Penn 15W40 and I’ll get a box of 20W50. Then I’ll do some testing and decide on a visc.

For the lazy…just use Mobil1 15W50. Not 15W50 “enhanced performance”, “enhanced mileage” or “enhanced breasts”, just 15W50. It’s not the cheapest and it’s not the best. But it is pretty cheap and pretty good.

#32

i think you mean 15w50, don’t think mobil1 comes in 20w50

#33

jtower wrote:

You’re right, good catch. I’ll change it.

#34

I had the op light flash at idle…ran some Kendall GT 1 straight 50 in it and a bottle of STP, ran fine on the street for a long time, then ran it in a 3 hour enduro, car finished, ran fine but was getting noisey. While running the straight 50 and STP the light never flashed again, if I had not raced it the motor probably would have lasted forever on the street…

Al